#10: How Connection Builds Leaders with Brittany Norman
In this episode, I interviewed Brittany Norman, Lead School Counselor, Onslow County Schools. This is a VERY special episode for me because I was Brittany’s 7th grade language arts teacher. It has been a joy to watch her grow into the leader she has become. We had a great conversation about how Brittany has embraced a new role as the Lead School Counselor and the lessons she’s learned along the way.
In this episode, Brittany shares:
- Her journey from a communications major to school counselor
- The importance of being present and holding space for others
- How self-care allows her to serve others at a higher level
- The power of the question, “What is it that you need right now?”
- Why as leaders we need to understand and embrace team culture
- How relationships and valuing others builds high-performing teams
- How self-awareness impacts leadership
- How the power of belief helps bring out leadership skills in others
- When you know your why, your what becomes even more important
- A tactical strategy to help you make informed decisions
Links & Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
– If You Don’t Feed the Teachers They Eat the Students
– The Four Agreements
– The Five Levels of Leadership
Links & Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
Episode 10 Transcript
Deanna Pecina: [00:00:00] So leadership is influence, right? it’s our ability to influence other people to.
Believe in themselves, influence other people to perform, influence other people to make changes sometimes. That, sometimes leaving, I’m a prime example of that. Sometimes leaving a job is the best thing that you could ever do for yourself and the organization, because if it’s not a good fit for you, is not a good fit for everybody who’s having to work with you.
And it, it takes a lot to be able to admit that and to see it. And. Being able to do exactly what you did, to say, oh my gosh, you should do this. I can see you up there. You give them permission to believe.
Deanna Pecina: [00:01:00] welcome Brittany to the Leading by type podcast. I can’t even begin to tell you how excited that I am that you’re here. I feel like I need to set the tone for people who are listening because you and I having a conversation I think is pretty unique. I was Brittany’s seventh grade language arts teacher, , and when I was her language arts teacher, let’s just say I was in my late twenties and she was not, she was thir 1213 at the time.
I am now in my early fifties. So a considerable amount of time has. Since she and I have, been in an environment where we see each other regularly. I just, I love that we’ve been able to connect through social media and I have loved watching from afar you, your development and your journey. And I’m really excited today to talk with you about, And so if you could just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you currently are in your position, as are you.
Are you the lead counselor? The, [00:02:00] what’s the official title?
Brittany Norman: Yeah, sure. Thank you for having me Miss Pecina. And I know it’s weird, but yes, you will always be Miss Pecina to me, . But yes, I currently am the lead school counselor here in Onslow County.
Deanna Pecina: That’s awesome. So that, that right there like negates the whole miss.
If I was still working there, we would be colleagues and it’s a totally different thing. I just think like at some point, age goes out the window and you just deal with people for. Being people. So I give you permission to let go of that .
Brittany Norman: It’s gonna be hard, but I’m gonna try. Okay.
Deanna Pecina: So how did you work your, how did you work your way up into that position?
Because it’s a pretty significant position. There’s what, 70? There used to be like 75,000 students. I don’t know how much the district has grown, but it’s a significant amount of students to be the lead counselor in a district.
Brittany Norman: Wow. Yeah. It certainly is a lot of students here. In Onslow. I started out as a school counselor primarily focusing on military children.
So I had that unique role as [00:03:00] here in Onslow, home to Camp La June. Such a large military base, right? So I did that for a number of years and here recently an opportunity presented itself and the position was open. And actually a colleague of mine, full disclosure, I’m not one to check HR websites, But a colleague of mine was like, Hey, did you see this? And I was like, no. And I looked at it and I was like and then you get to that space, where you’re like, I love what I do. But there was a part of me that felt a little complacent and it was like, is there an opportunity for me to grow?
just put it out there and see what happens. And Yeah, I, and here I am. It’s so crazy because I never see myself as a risk taker. And I’m like, when you’re in a space, like I said, you get complacent and you get somewhat comfortable. But there was that tiny part of me that was like ready for a new challenge.
And while, although I didn’t wanna get rid of what I knew I was good at, I knew I was stepping into something new and it was like, let’s go. So here I am.
Deanna Pecina: So when you went to [00:04:00] school initially, what did you go to school for counseling?
Brittany Norman: Oh wow. This is funny. So I went to school with an undeclared major.
I just knew I had to go to college, right? Mom was like, I don’t care what you do, go to college. . Went off to college and felt in love with Intro to Communication. I just, It was just something about the ability to talk to people. I felt like interpersonal communication was so important, and when you learn how much nonverbal communication has so much more weight over interpersonal
I just became infatuated with it. My initial goal was to be like the next Katie Courek, right? I wanted to be at Katie Courek or Oprah. I had big goals but I learned that. If you really wanted to go to that level, you had to leave. And I’m a family girl. So the idea of moving to a New York or a Los Angeles or something like that?
Yeah. That, that just wasn’t me. So I was like, what do you do when you like talking to people, but I kinda like helping people. So went to a career counselor, we did some exploring [00:05:00] and they were like, what about counseling? And I was like, I could do that.
Deanna Pecina: I love that because communication you and I were talking before we started recording, but when you can read people and you can understand the behaviors and what those behaviors might be telling you, it makes it so much easier to connect with people and meet them where they are.
and I know from experience that dealing with teenagers . You have to be able to do that, or you’re just gonna be, you’re gonna lose
Brittany Norman: this is true. And even working with parents, I find that a lot of it is just being present.
And just listening to them. I say this to this day, at least to me, 90% is just feeling heard and validated. And if I can give you that space to be, I think we can move forward in a positive direction.
Deanna Pecina: Absolutely. And it’s funny because. And you’ll have to forgive me if I at any point get emotional in our conversation because I just have such fond memories of [00:06:00] my time teaching there and the lessons that I learned and the things that I learned about myself.
you are a student that’s. I can very vividly remember you when you walked into a room. It was just like, whoa. There’s this light about you and this energy about you, and you just make people feel good. And so it’s such a full circle moment for me to be able to have this conversation with you and just be able to say, you’ve become who you always were.
And you are that, that light that you had at 12 and 13, it was there. And to see how it has, how it’s grown, and how you’ve nurtured it. And now that you’re in a position to do the same for other people, it’s just, it’s the best thing ever for me to be able to see that.
Brittany Norman: Ah, now you’re gonna try to make me emotional.
I’m not gonna do it. I’m not, I’m gonna try not to do it. I can’t tell you how. How much that means to me. You [00:07:00] hear compliments and things like that, but when you hear it from someone who knew you when you didn’t even know yourself , that just speaks volumes and I’m trying to keep my voice together for you, but that is truly by far one of the best compliments I think I’ve ever had because, As we evolve, right?
And we’re still on a journey. But when you get those affirmations along the way look at you. Yeah, you, there you go. Keep going. You’re doing great. . Um, That just, it means everything to me. So thank you. From the bottom of my heart, Miss Pecina.
I’m working on it.
Deanna Pecina: Okay? And because, it translates to even with, when you’re in a position where you’re a leader, right? You’re in a leadership role now where you are leading other counselors. And I would have to imagine that given a lot of the things that have gone on recently in education, dealing with covid, dealing with staffing issues, which under normal circumstances are challenging to find [00:08:00] people to fill roles.
Not just to fill the role, but to fill it effectively that your ability to , hold space for people, like you said, has to be something that goes a long way in the role that you’re in. . And so I’m curious as to how you have navigated some big challenges that you’re dealing with on a daily.
Brittany Norman: Absolutely. A lot of self care. . , I definitely I got into the groove of jumping in and being present for everyone else, right? I saw the need especially coming out of a pandemic. I tell people the silver lining is, there was a lot of attention that was brought to mental health, right?
, we, we see that there is a need. Students who were never. On our radar are now on our radar. The unfortunate part is that it took a global pandemic for people to see the value of mental health. So now that the attention has been brought back too, we’ve got an issue. Now we add on layers of [00:09:00] understaffing, right?
High staff burnout. The demands are increasing and the workload is increasing, but, everything else is still very minimal. The levels of support, because of all of those shortages. There’re just so many underlying factors in education across the globe, right? Not just here in North Carolina.
But when it comes to, helping the helper, it’s really just about, okay, what is it that you need right now? Because sometimes I’m not even gonna say sometimes I think what has happened is, the buzzword was learning loss. And so there was this push to, to get kids caught up.
. But I also think that we almost lost sight of, okay, we can’t just ignore what just happened, because now we’re starting to see kids come back, whether from a virtual setting where there either was too much structure or maybe not enough structure. With the expectation that they’re just supposed to come and sit back in class like they did in 2019, right?
Children are not the same. Parents are definitely not the same. [00:10:00] Educators are not the same. So many things have changed, but there was just this pressure to get back to normal that we kind overlooked a lot of those things, and so I think we’re starting to see the repercussions. So when it comes to offering that support, really just honing in on, not like what do you need in general, but what do you need right now and what can I do to support that?
I, again, as a school counselor, I don’t have a magic wand. I can’t go in and I can’t fix it, but I can give you space and I can help you work through and maybe even help organize some of your stressors Right now. What are some of those key challenges? Or some people just needed to know that it was okay to feel hard things.
I think as educators, we tend to be. As an educator, I can say it, we’re control freaks, right? We like to keep control and keep everything together, but with so much, with all of the uncertainty that came with the pandemic folks, were all out of sorts. So just really getting back, scaling back down to the bare minimum on, okay, what is it that you need [00:11:00] right now?
And then we’ll move on from there. But just really getting down to the focus of what are your immediate needs, because I need you to show up for our students, and I know that you can’t show up feeling the way that you do right now.
Deanna Pecina: So as someone who made that shift from working with kids to working with adults how has that been? Because I know that there’s challenges that come with that, especially. You know when you know, I was driven by working with my students so much so that when it should have been a massive red flag to me. But when I was an assistant principal, I talked my principal into letting me teach a class because I was like, it’ll keep me relevant.
No, it was because I just wanted to be with kids. Should have realized at that point that I was not making a good career. But what has that been like for you to make that shift from working with kids to now being in that leadership role in the district? In the district office? Cause it’s different.
You’re removed from a lot of what they’re, on the ground dealing with it [00:12:00] every day type of situations.
Brittany Norman: Wow. That’s a good question. I will say people ask me that often. They’re like, what is it like up there? Do you miss it? And I will tell you, I miss the kids. I truly do. I think all educators at heart, most of them will tell you that’s the one thing they miss, ?
. What I have found is that working with adults, and you’re probably gonna think I’m crazy, but I have found. The grade levels mimic the students. So in elementary, it’s very warm and fuzzy. Everyone tends to collaborate together. They’re really chatty. They share a lot, and it’s just a real First day of kindergarten, , everybody’s just, oh, welcome. We’re glad you’re here, . I think as we get older in middle school, it tends to be more clickish I find that certain certain regions, certain schools will sit together. Very similar. High school, again, very very.
Clickish yet, very matter of fact give it to me so I can [00:13:00] go on about my business, and just trying to adjust to everyone’s style. . It, I think that has been a big challenge for me. I will say I served in elementary and middle. I’ve never fully served in a high school level, so that, that was new to me.
But understanding the culture and. They don’t really have a lot of time. They’re busy with scheduling and scholarships, right? Like they’re , they’re very no nonsense. And so I had to adjust to that because I’m so used to my elementary folks, just being warm and fuzzy, right?
But I have an appreciation for every grade level. But to say that it’s been an adjustment is an understatement. I do find that what keeps me fueled is knowing that the impact that I have interacting with the adults is ultimately gonna impact the kids. , because that that was very hard for me coming up to the district level.
What about my influence? What’s gonna happen to these students when I’m no longer there? But at the same time, making a decision, knowing that level of influence [00:14:00] will hopefully still be there because of the interaction that you are gonna have by feeding the adult. When I first started, gosh maybe back in oh nine when I first started a former supervisor gave me a book and I think I, I hope I got it right if you don’t feed your teachers, they’ll eat your.
So I took that approach in making sure that, okay, stepping into this next level of leadership, what nourishment do my school counselors need so that they can, in turn, better support students. And I think holding onto that keeps me grounded.
Deanna Pecina: In John Maxwell’s book, the Five Levels of Leadership, he talks about.
That the ultimate goal of the pinnacle level of leadership level five is your only goal is to create other leaders. And so it’s a massive shift that has to happen to go from being the one who is doing the things to the one who is leading other people and inspiring other people to do the things, but the impact of that and the ripple effect of that.[00:15:00]
10 times more than if you’re, at level one and you’re just tactically learning how to do something. I just wanna acknowledge that’s a lot, that’s a lot to take on because how many schools are in the district?
Brittany Norman: Oh, goodness. We’ve added two. I wanna say we’re close to 40. I do believe, if not more,
Deanna Pecina: , that’s a lot. That’s, every school has counselors and every counselor has students, and every student has issues. And I’m sure that there’s some things that you have to be, you have to be brought in on. And again, your ability to be able to hold space for the people that are showing up and serving those kids on a daily basis, it matters and it’s important.
And when we talk before we go on here Brittany’s disc profile is an I D C, which. First of all, having again known her as a 12 and 13 year old, I was like, I know she’s a high . I actually recorded a podcast today about how to interact with a high eye and it was like, when I was in the classroom, the high eyes were always [00:16:00] talking and you just could not help but love them.
And I thought, oh, isn’t that funny that I’m talking to Brit? Cause that describes how she was. But in the best kind of way, you just, you have this way about you that it’s, you can’t help but like you, and so that’s that eye quality in you. But to have a IDC blend is actually pretty, pretty rare to have those three in combination because the profile type of that blend is a leader literally that’s, it’s called leader decisive one who strengthens.
And so as a leader, you with that blend, You have task orientation, but you also enjoy people. So in your role, I’m sure that there’s things that you have to make sure get done, that you have to be able to get buy in from the people that you’re working with, and you like to involve others, but you wanna make sure that things get done correctly there’s a power when you listen.
And consider the needs of other people, especially in difficult times. And [00:17:00] you spoke to that when you were talking about what do you need now? What do you need today? How can I help you today? So I’m just curious how does some of that resonates with you and, excellent communication skills, putting other people at ease.
I so many threads of this have already just like boo come up in the conversation that it’s really fun for me to be able to see. But I would like to hear your thoughts on that.
Brittany Norman: Sure. So I pulled it up as you were talking. It’s actually 41 schools and we have 65 school counselors. So yes I definitely have my hands full
But it’s one of those things, I guess the best way to describe it for me is thinking about how I take care of myself and it’s. With everything else going on, trying to remain present, like what is it that needs to be done right now? What are the needs that need to be met right now? It, it’s worked for me, so I guess I’ve tried to [00:18:00] establish one.
I’ve tried to establish relationships with everyone, right? But when it comes to really trying to offer that level of support I think. In addition to building relationships, there needs to be an element of trust there. Because I value authenticity just like I, I would hope a lot of others do too, right?
I don’t want it, I don’t want anyone to ever think it’s disingenuine that I’m coming in Hey, what do you need? . I want them to know that it is sincere, that it is coming from a good place and ultimately, Understanding why I’m asking is because I need to make sure that you have everything that you need so that you can in turn provide that same level of support for your students.
Especially when you think about the work that we do. It’s a very personal job, and so I don’t want people to just think that I care. I want ’em to know,
Whether it’s professionally or personally, but, I know how valuable it is to have a support [00:19:00] system in, in some bit of an accountability partner. So when I try to establish those relationships, it’s really important for me to let them know Hey, I’m here for you. I’m rooting for you. I genuinely want what’s best for you.
Deanna Pecina: It’s such a powerful thing because I think that so many times in organizations, and I have worked. I’ve done a lot of things since I left teaching middle school and some things I never would’ve imagined myself doing. I’ve worked in different types of school systems. I worked in the DOD school system for a brief period of time, completely different animal.
Worked for some companies, some startups and things like that. And it’s just, it’s really interesting to me because I just don’t understand how. You cannot care about the people that you work with or that you work for, because when people feel validated and cared about and heard, they’re going to do so much [00:20:00] more for the bottom line than if you’re just telling them to sit down, be quiet, and do your job.
Brittany Norman: Absolutely. I had a former colleague, she retired many years ago, but I called her my work mom. . And she she has a sign that she kept in her office. She actually left it with me. It’s be a good human. And you’re just like, she’s because nice matters. , she said, you never know what other people go through.
And it’s funny because, we look at all of the research that has come out, whether it’s on inclusion and diversity, they’re all basic principles, making sure individuals on a team feel seem valued and heard. Like it, it’s such a, it’s such a simple concept, but. I can also see how that could have easily just gone by the wayside or been forgotten, ?
, we’re human, we get lost in our own sauce, right? So you can forget those things, especially if you run into obstacles or challenges. You start to focus in like tunnel vision on yourself that you forget about other people, but also seeing [00:21:00] a lot the repercussions of not doing so.
And you never know what other people are going through. And you think about when you went through an ops score or challenge, how much it meant to you when someone genuinely checked in on you. . And anytime I have those feel good moments it’s important for me to pay it forward and just about everyone that I come into contact with.
Again, I try to keep that in the back of my mind. It’s important to be nice because you never know , and sometimes it’s harder to be nice to some folks who aren’t nice back. But as long as you’re doing the work, hopefully you can be that chain reaction going forward. Hopefully you can inspire someone else to be nice and put forth that same effort.
Deanna Pecina: Cause, nine times outta 10, somebody else’s bad day has nothing to do with. It has to do with seven or eight other things happened before they got to you, and you just happen to be the one that they take it out on. And that’s been a big lesson for me in situations to go, is this person really mad at me or are they mad at something else?
And they’re triggered by something and I’m just the one that they’re taking it out [00:22:00] on. It’s been helpful for me to be able to step back and say, okay, this one is not about me right now, and I’m not going to own your feelings. You can have those all to yourself and I’ll be here to support you, but I didn’t do this and your upsettedness has nothing to do with me.
And I think that’s where self-awareness as a leader is really important because you are managing people and personalities and problems. If you don’t have interpersonal skills and if you don’t have empathy and you don’t have communication, you are gonna flounder when it comes to leading a team.
Brittany Norman: Absolutely. I, and it’s so funny that you mentioned that taking it personally, I remember someone gave me a book the Four Agreements the first one is Don’t Take Things personally. And I remember I’m a feelings person. And I was like, what do you mean? I take everything personally.
But when I got in the habit of not taking it personally, it was such a huge weight lifted off of me, right? Because I’m a people person. , of course when you’re nice to [00:23:00] people, obviously you want people to be nice back. So when you weren’t getting that reciprocal energy, it was almost it was defeating.
But when I came to the realization, You’re not mad at me. You’re mad at something that I have no control over. That became a form of self care for me as understanding that it had absolutely nothing to do with me. And when I knew that, I almost felt like I was able to engage on, almost on a deeper level because it was like I was able to extend that grace because there was no defense there.
You wanna be able to feel the hard things and it’s okay to not be okay. And I guess that just goes back to just creating that space, but coming from a space that is transparent, that is welcoming, that is, it’s totally fine to feel what you feel.
I was able to do that by. Setting that mental boundary that this isn’t about me. And I think that’s another part of my leadership too, is [00:24:00] when I know that while I’ve worked hard to get here, this is not. This is not about me. I’ve always said that my, my purpose, my being, it’s so much greater than me.
I don’t know what’s next. I don’t know what’s coming, but I truly believe without the shadow of a doubt that I’m here for a reason. And if that reason is to inspire school counselors right now and my district. Then so be it. But when you realize that it’s not about you, that servant leadership, it, there’s just something that just really takes off and it just lights a fire in my spirit it just changes how you show up.
Deanna Pecina: It changes how you think about other people. It changes how you. Plan. It changes how you, what you value. And it just, it’s such a different lens to, to look at things through and it assumes the best in people instead of assuming the worst in people.
Brittany Norman: Absolutely. [00:25:00] I think one of my, one of my favorite quotes in, they roll their eyes every time I say it is, Use your professional judgment whenever I’m talking to my colleagues because and I get it.
Different leadership styles are different. Those that maybe working with a micromanager, they start to lose that sense of self. They start to lose a bit of their professional identity, and that comes even when any of our decisions are challenged, right? You start to question gosh, am I doing this right?
, you’ve gotta bring it back and you’ve gotta trust yourself. Cuz the reality is you two are here for a reason, right? You were selected to be in this position. So whether or not you’re qualified, that’s out of the question cuz you’re here now.
It’s just a matter of you believing in yourself to do what you feel is best.
Deanna Pecina: And that’s just such a huge gift to give somebody and I stop and think sometimes what is, what is my gift or what is my superpower? I think that when [00:26:00] I was teaching, I really feel like one of the things that I tried to do was be able to see things in kids that maybe they couldn’t see in themselves or see a future version of who they were going to be.
Versus just, oh you’re just a 12 year old. What do you know? Because you know what? Kids know a lot, and we might be a lot smarter if we all stopped and listened to them sometimes about the things that are on their minds and in their hearts. And so it’s how, being able to take that and now translate that into with adults.
Because we like to think that when we grow up, we have it all figured out. We don’t, There’s just as many self doubts and they’re different, and sometimes they’re even bigger, than what we dealt with when we were younger. being able to have conversations with people and really build them up based on their strengths and what they do offer.
We, we can’t all do it all. There’s no way, elementary schools, need elementary school counselors. I think of some high school counselors that I know who would’ve made horrible elementary school counselors, and [00:27:00] so it’s taking those gifts and talents and using them appropriately in the appropriate position in a way that benefits everybody and empowers you to spend time doing something that you actually really like to.
Brittany Norman: oh my goodness. That I think you hit the nail on the head because. You’re right. It’s one thing when you’re working with students because you’re helping to mold good citizens, right? You’re helping to mold young adults. And you’re right, adulting is a trap. They tell you by this age, all of this should be figured out.
what they tell you is there’s absolutely no playbook, , there’s no playbook. You’ll figure it out eventually, and then you turn the page. and it’s blank , so you’re just forced to figure it out. But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had conversations with colleagues. Have given presentations and I’ll take two for example here, and I told them, I was like, you should really submit a [00:28:00] proposal for the state conference.
Gosh, no one’s gonna accept my, like, why would I do that? I was like, you won’t know until you track. And I said, just trust me. I said, if nothing else, at least try no pressure or anything. When we were like a week out from the deadline, I resent it to ’em, I was like, Hey, just in case you were looking for a sign, this is it.
They submitted a proposal and it’s a pretty competitive, it’s statewide and both of them, Got accepted. So to see them, like in their element, some with standing rooms was like, look at you rocking like this is, you are in your element. And the feedback was like, wow, I would’ve never done this had you not said that.
there’s something to. Trying to grow, like you said, trying to inspire new leadership. . It’s, to me, it’s so powerful when you help them see something like students that they either have never seen or maybe didn’t believe that they had, and it was like, [00:29:00] just try it. Worst thing they could do is say no.
. And so to see them performing at a state level was just like in their element. Confident, competent, getting good feedback. I was like, this is what it’s about. That was all the brownie button I needed. .
Deanna Pecina: So leadership is influence, right? , it’s our ability to influence other people to.
Believe in themselves, influence other people to perform, influence other people to make changes sometimes. That, sometimes leaving, I’m a prime example of that. Sometimes leaving a job is the best thing that you could ever do for yourself and the organization, because if it’s not a good fit for you, is not a good fit for everybody who’s having to work with you.
And it, it takes a lot to be able to admit that and to see it. And. Being able to do exactly what you did, to say, oh my gosh, you should do this. I can see you up there. You give them permission to believe. I think in a lot of environments, especially a [00:30:00] school system where we’re just mired in bureaucracy and acronyms and paperwork and not enough money, and all of those things, It becomes really easy to think this is just my job.
This is just what I do, and not dream that there could be more, or that there are other ways to serve beyond the obvious. . So it’s a big deal that you’ve done that for them.
Brittany Norman: And understand not everyone is gonna go and wanna present at the state level, right? We’ve got other ones that their jam is data.
They love playing with an Excel sheet and making pie charts and things like that kind of stuff. If that’s your jam , how can we. Take that and support our other colleagues. I’m always on the hunt for best practices because I know from experience that good things are happening.
So for me, my job is to make sure that I’m spreading that. That love. I’m also spreading that wisdom, that knowledge, that professional experience among [00:31:00] colleagues, because you don’t have to do it exactly the way Brittany did it, but you could certainly take some of this and tweak it if this is applicable to you.
, just really trying to take what’s out there and use that to influence the culture as a whole. That’s what’s really most important to.
Deanna Pecina: I think that for, I honestly, as you were saying that my wheels started spinning oh my gosh. It would be so cool if you had disc profiles of every person on your team, and then you could plot them and see whose strengths are where, because people who are high Cs are gonna love exactly what you said.
They’re gonna be the ones who are doing the Excel documents and making sure that everything is done correctly. Your Ds are the ones who are gonna have no problem telling people what they need to do, how they need to do it, when they need to do it. Your eyes are, making everybody feel good.
Probably a lot of elementary school counselors and then your s are just really supportive people who are making sure that everyone has what they need. And when you can understand that it’s not good or bad, it’s not right or [00:32:00] wrong, it’s, this is what I am naturally proficient in doing and I enjoy doing.
When you can have a match between those two things, then people can. Unstoppable. And that’s what’s fun for me, especially to see your profile, that it’s literally leader and to see what you’re doing and how you’re able to utilize those skills. So it’s fun when you can really talent management if you will, talent growth of the people on your team, which you’re obviously invested.
Brittany Norman: Certainly I try to tell folks, it’s like I almost feel like a talent scout whenever. I’m like, okay, does anyone have a best practice? Like I, I don’t know that they’re on team meets yet, but I’m always like, Hey, I want you to talk about this I will be now if they listen to Yeah. They’re gonna be like, never again will I sign up
I don’t listen to that Brit girl . So much of it. is that support that you get from your colleagues and when you think about the team, like you said, there’s true value in it.
I [00:33:00] do find value in getting to know everyone else. What are your strengths? What are your shortcomings? Because the reality is you’re right, you’re a movement by yourself. But like when you all come together, it’s almost like I’m aging myself now. It’s like Captain Planet, right?
Like when all your powers are combined, you can take over the.
Deanna Pecina: Look at you talking about aging yourself. .
Brittany Norman: Yeah. Kids now they’re like, who? Who’s Captain Planet? I was like, nevermind
Deanna Pecina: Oh my gosh. I step one foot on a high school campus and I’m just like, I’m so not in this anymore, even though I have two high schoolers. It’s just totally different world since I left which is crazy. And it’s a totally different world than it was, just before, before Covid. Things have changed so much.
My, my hat’s off to you for being able to, to not only, manage it, but to lead through it and to show up and truly be an example of what is possible, especially in a field [00:34:00] where a lot of the perception is a lot of people aren’t happy or a lot of people are wanting to leave. , and I know you don’t stay in it because of a financial reward.
You stay in it because it’s something that you genuinely love doing and you can impact other people.
Brittany Norman: I really appreciate that. I think I think you said it and I’m always reminding people who. Who always make statements about education who don’t really have a whole lot of experience with education, and I’m quick to remind them that educators have never done it for the financial gain.
It’s always been because it is a job that is led through the heart. It is truly hard work. So when these folks are starting to. We’re in trouble because these people want to be here. Yeah we definitely had our fair share of challenges and I think it, it’s probably [00:35:00] across the globe. But it’s one of those things where we have to continue to do the work and refocus on.
Or why? I was listening to another podcast and someone had pretty much said, when you know your why, you’re what? It’s not even a second question. There’s no second guessing it. Your what becomes even more important. And so just trying to just make sure that we’re staying grounded and knowing that our work is good work.
It is meaningful work regardless of what’s being set out there. Regardless of the climate just staying encouraged and knowing that there’s support there and that we just have to get through this. I’m further encouraged that if there’s anyone that can get through anything is definitely educators.
I feel like if anyone can adjust and be resilient and bounce back quick, it is hands down educators.
Deanna Pecina: As a mom to two 16 year olds, I so appreciate their guidance counselors. They know me on a first name basis. But, I [00:36:00] just feel like it’s my job to advocate for my kids and.
I think that more parents, if they understood the difference between advocating and complaining, they could go a lot further. But that’s a whole other discussion. And I wanna, I wanna value your time, so I wanna just leave with this. First of all, I thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to spend a little time with me.
It means the world to be able to connect with you. I’ve had a couple. Full circle moments in the past couple of years, and it’s just the best feeling ever. So thank you for that selfishly. And if you could leave folks with one thought regarding. Maybe somebody’s struggling with figuring out what their why is.
Maybe they’re in a position or they’re trying to make a decision and they’re not sure what’s the right thing to do or the right direction to go. What would you leave them with, given the fact that you’ve been on a journey, you’ve made that decision to leave something that was uncomfortable and take a risk and take a challenge.
What would you say to this?
Brittany Norman: Ah, that’s a good one. [00:37:00] Okay, my, my kneejerk reaction as a counselor, and I still do this at 37, is you just pull out a good piece of paper and you make a pros and cons list and you be transparent with it. Write down benefits, write down some fears. Write down what are some barriers to this any apprehensions, are there any disadvantages to this?
And really once you word vomit it out, walk away from it, walk away from it, and then take some time, come back, take a look at it, and then just really. Think about your why. What fuels you? What drives you? What keeps you doing the things that you do? What brings you joy? A lot of times I do feel like people lose sense of that.
What is joy? I remember asking a group of folks that and no one could give me an answer. So really taking a pause, hitting the pause button for just a minute, and think about the things that bring you. And use that sense. Once you find those things that bring you joy, [00:38:00] let that be your guiding practice when making decisions, because ultimately you are gonna be the one to live with it.
Yes, your family may be impacted or something like that, but the reality is this something that is going to continue to bring you joy on this journey? And so I lead with that in all things that I do, and I would encourage others to do .
Thank you for that. That is the absolute perfect way to end this. Again, thank you and I am, I’m just, I’m so proud of you and so glad that we were able to connect today. Such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome.
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